Czarnik Chooses USHL; Miami
by WCHBlog on Aug 2, 2010 9:09 AM PDT
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PrintI think a lot of people were expecting Austin Czarnik to choose to play for the Windsor Spitfires of the OHL next season, since he still had one more year before he would be eligible for college and he had yet to make another college commitment since de-committing from Michigan State.
But today I've received word that Czarnik will play next season for the Green Bay Gamblers of the USHL, the USHL's defending champs, and then start his college career the following season with Miami University.
It seems like a wise move on Czarnik's part. He scored a lot of goals for the NTDP over the past two years, but with his lack of size, he's likely a longshot for much of an NHL career. This way he'll get to take his shot at pro hockey with an insurance policy of having a great education already under his belt.
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Miami
That’s really something given the fact that the University of Miami doesn’t have a hockey team. Not a whole lot of interest down in Florida. I think you mean Miami University in Ohio.
Phew!
Thanks for the clarification! That really helped us sift through the mirky waters here!
Yeah I think everyone knows what he was saying. But thanks for the help DUMB A**s.
Also I know this isn’t the place but your love for Pitlick makes me so sick, that I must say somthing. 0 pts 3 games and sent home. Nelson and Bjugstad 3 and 5 points each and are still at the camp. HUH! how could you be wrong?!
As someone who saw a whole lot of Czarnik this past season (as well as his cousin Robbie), I can say that I think he’s making the right choice here. Windsor is a team on its way down, and the OHL is filled with tiny guys who can score and miss out on an NHL career because of their size. If you’re not a 1st-3rd round talent (though he might very well be) and you’re as small as Czarnik is, you’re probably going to stay in junior until you’re 20, and 20 year old junior players rarely make it to the NHL. Czarnik will be a sophomore at Miami when he turns 20, and he has the opportunity to contend for a Hobey by his senior year. Great choice, good education (Miami is certainly better than Sparty).
Indeed a very wise decision by Czarnik, I mean why go to a team that has produced a plethora of NHL players when you can go to a college team where NHL caliber players are far and few between……he should fit right in!
Typical of the pro-CHL “mindset” (I put that in quotation marks because the pro-CHL mindset is mindless)…the kid is tiny, and is a longshot for an NHL career. But because he shunned your team, you think that turning down an education to play a couple years of junior would be better for his “development”.
And the Spits aren’t exactly a shining example of a system that produces a lot of NHL talent. Prior to the Boughner/Rychel years, the Spits had a hard time developing talent (and drawing fans, for that matter) despite having really high draft picks and being in one of the top hockey markets in North America.
Czarnik is going to get to be a star for a team that should contend for a National Championship, he’ll get to be the big man on campus, with tons of options if his hockey career doesn’t work out (similar to what being a former London Knights star does for you in London), he’ll get a top-rate education, and he’ll have the benefit of not having to have the NHL make a decision on him until he’s 22. The Spits just can’t offer any of that. They’re a declining team in a depressing town, and Czarnik would be a fool to have picked Windsor over the NCAA.
It’d be different if he were a first-round talent. Even then, the NCAA route is as good as the CHL route, but if he were a first-round talent, a decision to play in the CHL would at least be understandable.
Wow!
The Windsor Spitfires have produced more NHL players than Miami ever has. If you want to talk about history, you must be some sort of revisionist because Miami was a joke until they built the new barn. Don’t recall any Jovanovski’s in their history!
I will say that Czarnik’s decision is a good one. He’s not a high end prospect and considered long shot to make it to the NHL. The CHL is for the best players.
Yeah, CHL players don’t care about an education,
Wooops look what I stumbled across
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfu2EEC0pz0
Hmmm, looks like many OHL players do care about their education after all.
by KTF on Aug 3, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, except that those numbers are false.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCAQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb1.ncaa.org%2Fweb_files%2FDI_Amateurism_Cab%2F2010%2FFebruary%252025%2520and%252026%2C%25202010%2FSupplement%2520No.%252013.pdf&rct=j&q=hicks%20kitchener%20ncaa&ei=Q9dYTPyhK4mesQOO6pWeCw&usg=AFQjCNEG3QaONc-ufQwBX2AO2x8Vs7zGCg&sig2=ejDABg5HnFtAIiUqIu7a3Q
Regardless, the thing that you conveniently ignore is that Czarnik doesn’t have enough OHL eligibility left to play enough years to earn a full scholarship. And your ignorant drivel further ignores the fact that according to CHL rules, his CHL scholarship would give him the average of tuition (and ONLY tuition) at Oakland University and Wayne State University, the two closest four-year schools to his domicile (Romeo, MI). His three years of playing for the Spits wouldn’t even pay for a year’s tuition at Miami U, much less room and board, much less the other three years. But you think he should have passed that up to play for the Spits because…well…you’re Canadian and have an overly-inflated opinion of where the CHL is in terms of prospect development.
That’s what’s sick about you people. You constantly crow about the CHL’s BS “education package”, and act as if American kids are better off taking the under-the-table cash envelopes than to earn an education while having the time of their life and developing their game in the NCAA. You think that playing junior hockey is more valuable than an education. And for what? So your favorite junior team can exploit the kids and win a few more games? That’s sick.
Czarnik made the right choice, as did Johns. It looks like Tinordi is leaning toward making the right decision as well. My favorite OHL team owns the rights to a couple of really juicy NCAA commits, and while I’d love to see them playing for my team, I’d much rather these kids make the right choice for THEM, not my favorite team.
Finally, I always get a kick out of you Canadians bragging about Americans jumping to the CHL, while fewer and fewer Canadians play in the NCAA. You’re the same people who go nuts for Team Canada in the WJC, and the same people who cried rivers when your team got their asses kicked in the WJC. And for some convoluted reason, you think that the fact that there were a few CHL Americans on that Gold Medal winning American team is a positive for Canada…well, Earth to simpleton…every time an American jumps to the CHL, that’s one fewer CHL opportunity for a Canadian kid. And since you clowns have Canadian kids brainwashed into thinking they should flush their chance at an education down the toilet, the spot on an NCAA roster that the American kid gave up to go to the CHL is also another opportunity for an American kid.
Our development system keeps getting better and better. We’re producing more and more kids every year, and they’re coming from all over the country. Our kids need more opportunities, and the more spots our kids take from your kids, the better off our system is, and it weakens your system at the same time.
So keep bragging. We’ll keep laughing.
Did the article explain where the reporter got those numbers from? Nope.
As for Czarnik, if Windsor really wanted him, they could have offered him a 4 year education package.
Do you really believe the NCAA does not exploit their players? You are quite naive!
by KTF on Aug 4, 2010 3:12 AM PDT up reply actions
So then then we can level the same charge against the top feeder league to the NCAA….the USHL, can’t we! Heck they are even worse as they offer their players no educational scholarships or grants! Shame on the NCAA for partnering up with such a corrupt organization!!!!!
by KTF on Aug 4, 2010 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Does not the USHL attempt to make money off their players…are they not a for profit league??? How are they any different than the CHL.?
At least the USHL and CHL are honest about what they do….unlike the NCAA who make a fortune off their players and give them what in return?
by KTF on Aug 5, 2010 3:07 AM PDT up reply actions
HAHA oh yeah your right! It is the same! How old are you? I’m thinking this is the time I decide to stop talking to the wall(or the 13 year old boy).
Wow what a stunning rebuttal…..let me guess, you may not be 13 years old but you have the mental capacity of a 12 year old.
by KTF on Aug 5, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Valid point!
KTF made a valid point that you failed to address … or circumvented the issue because you do not have a plausible rebuttal. The CHL pays for their players’ education. What does the USHL do for their kids?
Allows players(that want to get a college education) a opportunity to play hockey at a higher level and not lose there college eligibility.
LOL
How bout that!? The CHL does the same exact thing. Look at UNB’s roster (who came down and swept NCAA schools last year). All CHL kids on their roster! A-N-D those kids ALL got 4/4’s through their education packages. DOes the USHL pay for their kids’ education? Phail.
Those UNB kids get 4/4 scholarships from UNB. Their CHL scholarships wouldn’t cover their expenses.
That’s a big reason why the NCAA’s college graduation rate for hockey players is 85%, while the CHL is at less than 20%. For all this talk about how the CHL is the “best of both worlds,” the numbers certainly don’t agree.
Can you provide a link that states that 85% of NCAA hockey players graduate within 4 years and only 20% of CHL grads do?
The CHL provides its players with enough money to continue their education…the CIS then adds to that value…as a result the vast majority of UNB’s roster is on a full ride….no NCAA team can say the same!!!!
by KTF on Aug 7, 2010 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I didn’t say 85% within four years. I said 85%. And the USHL website has that info.
And yes, most D1 schools can say that their entire roster is on a full ride. What the hell are you even talking about?
The CHL doesn’t provide its players with enough money to continue their education. They provide players with enough money to cover their tuition. Everything else is up to them. NCAA schools cover everything. There’s no comparison.
And the CIS schools only “add value” to the players they give scholarships to. Everyone else is on their own.
The USHL has the info??? PLEASE! Like they aren’t biased! Where did they get their numbers? Pull it out of the air???
It seems like you know very little about NCAA packages…each team is allowed to only give out 18 full scholarships and most clubs divide those out amoung 25-27 players. Only about 10 D-1 players are on full rides.
All former CHL playrers in the CIS are on full rides because the CHL clubs cover their books and tution and the school covers their residency.
Again….the NCAA simply cannot compare or compete!
by KTF on Aug 7, 2010 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions
You've been misinformed.
The CIS schools do not offer scholarships. The former CHL players on the UNB roster are using their CHL education packages. Nice try. BEST OF BOTH WORLDS!
Steve Ott, Jason Spezza, Klye Wellwood are just an example of the many players produced by the Spits organization long before the Boughner/Rychel years….of course what would a myopic NCAA fan know though.
Interesting that a small player like Wellwood carved himself out a decent NHL career by playing in the O….good thing he didn’t throw it all away by choosing to play for Miami.
Jason Spezza played for 3 or 4 OHL teams. Brampton and Mississagua probably have as much to do with his development as Windsor it not more so as he was already an OHL star when he went to Spitfires. Kyle Wellwood only played a season and a half in Windsor and had already been drafted by the Leafs and had a 100 point season under his belt with Belleville. Miami probably would have been good for Wellwood cause as we all know his biggest problem is he is fat and most NCAA players are known to be better conditioned off the ice.
LOL, I’m a season ticket holder for an OHL team, and attended probably 30 OHL games last season that “my” team wasn’t involved in. The only NCAA games I’ve attended in the past 10 years are games where the NTDP was playing a college team, and that includes my alma mater. I love the OHL and consider the NCAA to be essentially unwatchable. But that doesn’t change the fact that the NCAA is as good as the CHL in terms of player development, and that the NCAA offers everything that the CHL does, but the CHL cannot offer everything the NCAA does.
He’s in the minority on that one. The top NCAA teams blow the top CHL teams out of the water in terms of average (and sometimes total) attendance. The Gophers and Badgers are close to 10,000 per game… and that’s not even mentioning the TV ratings.
by The Exiled One on Aug 3, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I spend a lot of the time at the Ice Cube watching the NTDP. We’re talking about a team that has won multiple gold medals in the past 16 months, chock full of first and second round NHL picks, and the team draws ~300 fans per game. 3/4ths of those are scouts, and the other 1/4th are the players’ families and friends. It’s good, exciting hockey though.
But yeah, the top NCAA teams blow the top CHL teams out of the water in terms of attendance. Most top NCAA teams have a dedicated, built-in, constantly-replenished fan base right on campus, whereas CHL teams tend to be located in more remote areas. And while the CHL team is often the biggest draw in town (the Knights are the main story year round in London) and some of the teams routinely sell out their arenas, there just isn’t the fan support for 11,000 per game night in and night out.
The interesting comparison would be between teams like Saginaw and Bowling Green. Who draws better? Someone here probably knows.
Saginaw draws an average of 3000 per game. Bowling Green draws 2000. London draws 9100 and Ottowa close to 8000 (more than any team in the CCHA, H.E. ECAC…only Wisconsin, Minnesota and NoDak draw better) Out west its not uncommon to see Calgary draw over 10000 a game.
by KTF on Aug 4, 2010 3:14 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m a WCHA fan, so low attendance in the CCHA, HE, and the ECAC don’t bother me much. ;)
by The Exiled One on Aug 4, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Personal preference. Mind you, I’m a Michigan alum who worked in scouting before I went to college. So going to Yost and sitting in the student section wasn’t really conducive to actually WATCHING hockey, due to all the chanting and cussing and whatnot. It’s a great environment if you’re into that, it’s just not my thing.
For those who don’t know too much about the OHL, Windsor Spitfire fans are like Yost fans, minus the class, dedication, education and chance for a successful future. Yost fans can breathe without opening their mouth, read without moving their lips (or read period), and their family trees have branches. Other than that, Yost fans and Spits fans are exactly the same.
Another part of why I’m an OHL fan is I just prefer how it’s set up. OHL front offices are shady places, their teams are run like NHL teams, and they openly exploit their players. Contending teams load up at the trade deadline, while the doormats trade their stars for picks. One front office will have an open, verbal, immature fight with another. A team will draft another team’s GM’s kid in a dick move, then bend that team over when they attempt to acquire their own kid. It’s chock full of drama, set up just like the NHL. It’s a blast to watch, and it’s even more interesting when you know people involved with teams and get to hear the inside gossip.
But is it a better developmental league than the NCAA? No. For some kids, it’s better. For most kids (especially defensemen and goalies), they’d be better off in the NCAA. I don’t fault people for watching the NCAA, and I’m a huge NCAA fan in theory – I just have a hard time watching it.
Wellwood maybe “fat” but he has played well over 300 NHL games and has socked away millions of dollars….not bad for a small “fat” player who made the “wrong” choice in choosing the OHL.
The Spitfires have produced far more elite players in the past ten years than Miami has since the 1970’s and they will continue to produce more players.
I live on a border town that has a Major A team on one side and a D-1 college team on the other. The OHL game is faster, physical and the players are more talented.
In terms of development, the NCAA simply cannot compare and I suppose that is why more and more players are defecting from the NCAA route to the CHL, just as Atlanta’s 3rd round pick Julien Melchiori has done today on the advice of the Thrashers coaching staff.
Now what does that tell you?!
What border town has a Major A team on one side and a D-1 college team on the other? It’s not St Catharines, because UatB doesn’t have a D1 hockey team. It’s not Windsor, because Detroit doesn’t have a D1 NCAA team. It’s not Sarnia, because Port Huron doesn’t have a college team at all. Are you talking about Sault Ste Marie? It’d be kind of hard to make a fair comparison between the two forms of hockey when you’re comparing Soo to Lake State.
Regardless, if you think the OHL is faster than the NCAA, I want some of what you’re smoking. Speaking of smoking, that’s what Team USA did to Team Canada in the WJC, and we did that based on speed and talent. Guess where the majority of our fast, talented players play? I’ll give you a hint – it’s not the OHL.
Obviously that means that CHL is better…i mean we should shut down NCAA hockey all together…
I got a kick out of reading the OHLFORUM when they suggested that Tinordi would bail on Notre Dame because he was cut from the USA WJC team…Brilliant logic.
That’s the NOOF for ya. Every American kid who is drafted by an OHL team is dying to play in the OHL. Every American kid who is drafted by an OHL team but chooses the USHL/NCAA route and is then drafted by the NHL will be told by his NHL team to play in the CHL. This is exactly what they’ve said about Tinordi all along. Yet, Tinordi is still a Notre Dame commit.
These CHL clowns love to make the argument that it would be “better for the NCAA” if they allowed junior players to play college when they finished junior. Their logic is that the losers and washouts who finish junior without a shot at a pro career could then go to the NCAA, and somehow improve the level of talent in the NCAA. They don’t explain how a bunch of 20 year old junior scrubs and washouts would improve the level of talent, but don’t question them.
In reality, the best thing for all involved would be for the CHL to transform itself into a league where only players who haven’t been drafted by NHL teams could play. Then, the CHL wouldn’t be forcing 15 year olds to make life-altering decisions, and CHL kids wouldn’t be throwing away their education to play junior hockey for organizations that just see them as meat.
First off it is not the CHL that is forcing kids to make life altering decisions at the age of 15. That would be the NCAA who foolishly considers the CHL to be a pro league.
Secondly, look around the NCAA is fast becoming an after thought. Look at the number of defections in recent years. The top players stay one or two years at the most and then bolt. What are you left with???
We will see where Tinordi plays, I wouldn’t count London out just yet…..seems to me that Montreal was not happy with Leblanc’s progress at Harvard and considering the “problems” that Notre Dame is having concerning player conduct and discipline, don’t be shocked to see Montreal push Tinordi to London.
I wonder why, as stated by your guru Paul Kelly, 22 NHL teams at the entry asked NCAA commited players if they would reconsider and play in the CHL. That is a pretty ringing endorsment for the CHL and quite the slight against the NCAA!
by KTF on Aug 4, 2010 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Or could it be anti-NCAA by those organization. If you look closer you don’t see a lot of NHL teams asking Dave Hakstol’s recruits to bolt from the team to the CHL. It might be more on who the coach of the team is and not the NCAA as a whole.
Exactly. NOOF idiots are going nuts about Melchiori deciding to pass on UMass-Lowell for Kitchener at Atlanta’s request. If he were at BC and his OHL rights were held by Owen Sound, he’d be an Eagle this fall. But given that UMass-Lowell is not a great school (academically or in hockey), while Kitchener is the clear front-runner to represent the OHL’s at-large bid in the Mem Cup this fall, it makes perfect sense for the Thrashers to want the kid to defect. Add that to the fact that Kitchener surely gave him a 4-year scholarship guarantee, and it’s a no-brainer for him.
You mean like when Trevor Lewis’ rights were held by Owen Sound……whoops bad example because his NHL team also told him to skip the NCAA and play in Owen Sound rather than for Michigan……sorry DetAvs try again.
by KTF on Aug 7, 2010 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Nope, I was right the first time. Different situations lead to different outcomes. If Melchiori’s rights were held by Owen Sound, he’d still be headed to UMass-Lowell.
Does not change the fact that even a lowe level team like Owen Sound was thought more highly by a NHL club than your might Michigan!
by KTF on Aug 7, 2010 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, it is the CHL asking kids to make life-altering decisions at the age of 15. NCAA schools aren’t even allowed to recruit kids that young, much less asking them to play for their schools. And there’s nothing foolish about the NCAA considering the CHL a pro league.
The NCAA is becoming an afterthought? From 1979 to now, the percentage of regular NHL players who came from the NCAA has jumped from 9% to 24%. Considering that Europeans made up about 1% of the players in the NHL back in 1979 and now make up a considerable portion (isn’t it somewhere over 20%?) of the NHL these days, both of those groups have made their gains solely at the expense of the CHL.
As for the number of defections, you’re misleading yourself with anecdotal evidence. Yes, guys like Kane defected, but if you look at the actual numbers of players defecting from the NCAA to the CHL, the number is negligible. Yes, the NCAA loses players to the NHL, but that’s not a problem. And what does it leave the NCAA? It leaves them with more opportunities for kids to get an education while playing hockey.
Further, guys aren’t making the jump from the NCAA to the CHL because they want to play tougher competition, they’re doing it because they want to shine amongst EASIER competition. That’s why you see guys plodding along in the NCAA, then leave for the CHL and light up the league. A lot of times, a freshman in the NCAA isn’t getting the minutes he thinks he deserves, and you have some CHL GM calling him every day offering him a ton of money and a ton of ice time to leave school and go dominate in the CHL. I don’t blame the kids one bit. It’s weak, but it’s understandable.
Hell, you even see guys like Kantor in Saginaw, a kid playing in the NAHL and not even getting a sniff from D3 schools make the jump from the NAHL to the OHL mid-season. Look at Kantor’s numbers with Albert Lea and then with Saginaw:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=124705 It’s kind of hard to make the argument that the CHL is so vastly superior to the NCAA when the feeder league to the non-scholarship DIVISION 3 schools is tougher than the OHL.
As I said before, the best solution for all involved would be for the CHL to go to a U18 format, or at least bar NHL-drafted players from playing in the league. Barring that, if the CHL really wants to be dominant over the NCAA as you seem to think they are, then they should offer guaranteed 4-year scholarships including books, room and board for all Americans and dual-citizens who sign with a CHL team. I think then you’d probably see Americans jumping to the CHL in big numbers.
The reality is that more and more kids are defecting to the CHL…..because the majority of high end talent comes from the CHL.
The NCAA is bleeding talent….its product is vastly weaker than it was 10 years ago.
by KTF on Aug 7, 2010 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
It is not the CHL that bars its players from playing in the NCAA….it is the NCAA’s choice. As a result it is the NCAA that is “forcing” these kids into making tough decisions at the age of 15. Pitty for the NCAA that more and more high end Americans are choosing the CHL because of it!
As for elite level talent…there is no comparison! How many NCAA players were taken in the firt 10 picks of the last NHL entry draft? ZERO! How many were taken last year? ZERO!
More and more of the better Euros are also deciding to play in the CHL now, making the league even stronger while the NCAA becomes weaker and increasinly an after thought!
by KTF on Aug 7, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
shakes head
First, the CHL are the ones making the 15 year olds make the life-altering decisions. If the CHL would stop allowing NHL-drafted players on their rosters, or stop drafting 15 and 16 year olds, then these kids wouldn’t have to make those decisions at such a young age. The NCAA is not at fault for wanting to keep itself an amateur league.
Second, your argument about players taken in the first ten picks of the Draft is loaded and you know it. OF COURSE there weren’t NCAA players taken in the first ten picks, because that would require the kids to have either played in the NCAA at 17 years of age, or they would have had to have slipped through the Draft last season and then proven themselves to the point where they went from slipping through the Draft to being a top 10 pick. It’s an unfair comparison.
Third, there is no recognizable difference in the quantity or quality of European talent coming to the CHL now as compared to ten years ago.
Fourth, you’ve gotten to the point where you’re just trolling now. Have some class, if that’s even possible for someone like you.
Let me put it another way….a simple way for you to understand….THERE WERE ZERO NCAA bound players taken in the first 10 picks for the past two years! Easier for you to understand now???
The NCAA needs to change its ridiculous policy of treating the CHL like a pro league and then kids won’t have to decide at 15 or 16!!!
by KTF on Aug 7, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow, way to bury your head in the sand and repeat what you already said, cowering away from trying to refute my argument. Heh, I guess we’re seeing now why it’s so important to get an education.
Wow!
DetAvs, you really aren’t reading KTF’s posts.
Hmmm OK, you cannot stand to watch the NCAA but yet you conider it faster?? What ever I’m smoking is nothing compared to what you are on.
As for Team USA, did they not have the most Major A players on their team in quite some while?? Yes, they sure did and I wound not consider an OT win a “smoking” of Team Canada! Revenge will be sweet in Buffalo this year.
I don’t watch the NCAA, but it’s not because of the speed – quite the contrary, the NCAA is much faster-paced than the CHL. It’s just not a style of hockey that I like.
And yes, the 2010 WJC Gold Medalists had more CHL players than they had in recent years, and that’s because Team USA decided to bring in CHL guys to be role players on the 3rd and 4th lines. I love McRae, Jenks and Walker, but if you think they were the catalysts for Team USA crushing the psyche of your entire nation, you’re on the wacky tobaccy.
Who was the top D man for the U.S.? John Carlson, an OHL grad! Who was your best goaltender? Jack Campbell, and where is he playing this year….yeah thats right in the OHL for the Windsor Spitfires ( LOL how that must chap your ass Mr Michigan Alum!)
So once again, explain to me how an OT win is a “crushing” victory. I won’t even get into the top players Canada was missing, players that were produced in the CHL and jumped to the NHL as 18 and 19 year olds!
Carlson was one of the best D for the US, yes. I’d say it was Carlson and Fowler (who shut down Taylor Hall both times he played against him in the WJC) who were the best for Team USA. Both OHLers.
Campbell choosing the Spits over Michigan doesn’t bother me at all. I don’t really care about UM hockey that much, but to the extent that I do care, I’d much prefer that Michigan concentrate on getting a rock-solid commit from a young goalie (there’s reportedly mutual interest between Dalton Izyk and Michigan, and Izyk already told Brampton to kiss his ass) than to have Jack Campbell for a year before the Stars sign him. That would actually set the program back a lot further than losing Campbell to the Spits.
Actually, if I were the Stars, I’d sign Campbell now and have him play this coming year in the AHL. It’s looking like whether Campbell plays in the OHL or AHL this year, he’ll be in the NHL the year after.
Personally I don’t understand why every thread has to become a pissing contest between the CHL and the NCAA. I believe both leagues have lots to offer.
I agree. I’m a CHL season ticket holder who attends a ton of NTDP and TOEHL games, and loves the NCAA route.
But it HAS to be a pissing match when the CHL idiots jump in. There’s a one-way “war” going on, and these myopic CHL clowns think they’re winning it. The NCAA isn’t in a “war” with another league. Individual programs are in “wars” with each other, and while they’d rather not lose a kid like Lessio to the OHL, nobody is losing any sleep over it. NCAA coaches have to compete with one another, and a guy like Red Berenson would probably prefer to lose Campbell to the OHL than to Michigan State.
Further, it’s even less of a “war” between the NCAA and CHL when it comes to Minnesota and Wisconsin kids. It’s funny, these CHL clowns never seem to mention that the CHL has a hell of a time trying to recruit a Minnesota or Wisconsin kid away from UWisc or any of the Minnesota schools. It takes a personality clash with the coaching staff for a Minnesota or Wisconsin kid to choose the CHL over the Minnesota and Wisconsin schools. The same is pretty much the case for the Boston schools as well. California kids aren’t as highly-recruited as they ought to be, and there aren’t really any schools for them to attend near home anyway. It’s mainly the Michigan and Pennsylvania-area kids who go to the CHL, and – imagine that – both of those states have CHL teams. A Detroit-area kid has five CHL teams within an hour and a half of his home, and if he’s playing in the TOEHL, he’s going to play a considerable number of games in an OHL arena, if he isn’t in an OHL-related organization to begin with (the Compuware kids share a home rink with the Plymouth Whalers, and the Compuware kids practice with the Whalers on a daily basis).
Oh sure the NCAA isn’t losing any sleep when the majority of top prospects choose the CHL over the NCAA…..I guess that is why they pushed for U.S. College Hockey Inc with a MULTI MILLION DOLLAR BUDGET in trying to stem the losses!
by KTF on Aug 8, 2010 6:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey Det(SLUMCITY)Ave….another player (Tinordi) has chosen the CHL over the NCAA….glad the NCAA isn’t losing any sleep over it tough.
The OHL will gladly continue to take the best players while the NCAA soundly sleeps!
Yeah and he wasn’t swayed by his NHL or the NCAA haters that are the Hunters and the London Knights….
Again, he’s likely good enough to play in the NHL before he’s 21 so go ahead and claim the victory, it wouldn’t have mattered where Tiniordi played. Yawn.
by The Rabid One on Aug 11, 2010 5:27 AM PDT up reply actions
the thing is thats not true. if you go to college your automatically going to a better school even if your not smart. if you go chl then you have to get into the school with better grades than most and we all know hockey players dont care about school especially if there in the o. you may say that the o is great for school and kids care. but to be honest none of them do. its just like every other kid that plays hockey. no one cares about there grades unless there a student that wants all A’s. This is a college blog just so you know too.
Unless every CHL kid is taking classes while they play, then to me the education thing doesn’t matter because that’s where the difference lies. You have to take classes and keep a decent GPA to play in the NCAA, not so in the CHL. For me the bigger arguement is which league gets you to the NHL faster. The CHL likes to tout that one too, you’ll make the league faster, but is it really true? For the most part you can only play in either league at the same age for 3 years, 18-20. If you are good enough to make the NHL, as a regular at that age, or even 21, you are going to be good enough no matter which route you take.
The problem is the marginal kids, the ones who leave the NCAA, head for the CHL, age out and end up in the minors for several years. Did they really benefit by leaving and not having a degree before they did? ( I say this because really, how many CHL kids get that degree while in the CHL or within say 2 years after leaving? I’d wager not many as again I don’t believe CHL kids are taking full loads so they can graduate at 22)
So they play in the CHL, age out and hit the minors but they don’t have that degree where if they had stayed 4 years in the NCAA, they do in all likelyhood.
Take Jim O’Brien for example, leaves MN after one year, heads to the WHL, ages out and last year was a rookie in the AHL. Had he stayed at MN, he would be an AHL rookie this year, so all his leaving did was accelerate his minor career by a season and he has no degree, something he likely would have had if he’d stayed.
Same thing with TJ Fast, leaves DU, ages out of the WHL and has split time in the minors between the ECHL and the AHL. Did he really gain anything by jumping?
I’m certain I could find more examples if I kept looking. But for me that’s the real CHL falacy in their selling points, you’ll make the NHL faster because I for one don’t buy it and I don’t think the numbers would prove it.
First and foremost, the OHL is not full of players who could care less about an education. In fact OHL players have a much higher H.S. graduation rate than the average population at large!
As for getting you to the NHL faster, tell me, how many current NCAA alums in the NHL have a college degree? Answer, far less than 25%! The vast majority of them left school early to pursue their pro dreams which leads us to the question as to why they chose the NCAA in the first place? Perhaps more and more elite level prospects are asking that very question and coming to the conclusion that if they truely want to get to the NHL as soon as possible, the NCAA route becomes the more cumbersome path since they do not plan on graduating any way!
As for Jim O’Brien….he signed a NHL contract that gave him a hefty signing bonus that will pay for his education 5 times over! He did not lose anything other than make serious money much sooner had he stayed in college for four years!
Didn’t say they didn’t care about an education, I said they aren’t taking a full load of classes while playing which NCAA kids have to do.
Show me where you are getting the 25% number from because without proof, it’s easy to think you made it up.
Yes kids leave early, as I said, if you can leave and make the NHL before 21 you were going to regardless of the route you took. I also don’t think the NCAA guys consider that route to be cumbersome or if they do, it’s their own fault considering if you play NCAA, you know you have to be a student too.
Yeah, O’Brien signed a contract, and? If he’d stayed, he still gets that contract that could pay for his education, except he’s already got it if he stays, then his money doesn’t have to go to it.
by The Rabid One on Aug 10, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Simply take a look at NCAA alums on NHL rosters and see how many actually earned a college degree….25% may be too high of a number!
No most CHL kids are not taking a full load of college classes but are kids on USHL/NAHL and various Tier II leagues across Canada? NO! In fact CHL kids probably take more college classes than their Junior counterparts who are on track to join the NCAA!
O"Brien is a fairly rich young man who, if education is important to him, has been taking college classes during the summer and is close to his degree anyway. The difference being he is well over 250K dollars ahead of where he would have been had he stayed in Minny for four full years.
Funny, I don’t think the NHL rosters will say whether they have degrees or not and you mention O’Brien taking summer classes, who says those guys that you claim don’t have a degree haven’t been doing that?
Unless you know who has a degree and who doesn’t, stop pulling numbers from your ass to try and support your CHL is superior argument, it gets really old.
Also, USHL kids can’t take college classes, once you start taking classes, your “clock” starts with the NCAA and you have 5 years to complete 4 playing years once you start taking classes. So if they want to play 4 years, no classes in the USHL or other junior leagues.
by The Rabid One on Aug 11, 2010 5:25 AM PDT up reply actions
All the CHL teams that I know of require their kids to be in school. If they have graduated HS, they are required to take college classes. No, they do not take a full load, but they are chipping away at a higher degree, and it is paid for in full by their CHL club.
As for the stat about NCAA guys who have degrees in the NHL, that number is much lower than 25%. Most of the NCAA guys who are in the NHL left college before they finished their degrees.
Again though, how do you know they haven’t finished it later over the summer? Answer, you don’t. You can assume it, but you don’t know it.
by The Rabid One on Aug 11, 2010 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Take a look at the NCAA players in the NHL….the vast majority left before four years, thus not earning a degree.
So the USHL players cannot even attend college classes because it starts the clock on their NCAA eligibility? Another reason as to why the CHL route is so superior to that of the NCAA!!!! CHL players can have up to two years of college course work competed before even going on to college full time.
No wonder why the CHL is beating the crap out of the NCAA!
Miami grads in NHL
Because this thread is (or was) about Czarnik and his heading to Miami and the wisdom of that decision and education debate is raging, here are some facts about Miami players who played in the NHL and whether they graduated. For Miami, the vast majority of NHL players did not leave before four years, and the vast majority earned their degrees. I am not saying that is true for all schools, but it is part of the culture Czarnik chose to join. I may have missed one of two of the old timers. Of the 13 NHLers on the below list, three did not graduate and one of those three probably will (Martinez). I am not sure about Steve McKichan.
Recent players:
Ryan Jones, graduated
Dan Boyle, graduated
Andy Greene, graduated
Kevyn Adams, graduated
Randy Robitaille, left after two years, did not graduate
Todd Rohloff, graduated
Mike Glumac, graduated
Pat Leahy, graduated
Justin Mercier, graduated
Alec Martinez, left after three years with high gpa, is finishing in summer, but has not yet graduated
Not so recent players:
Brian Savage, left after three years for Olympics, did not graduate
Rich Shulmistra, graduated (cup of coffee in NHL)
Al Chevrier, graduated
Steve McKichan, back in the summer to finish but I am not sure if he did or not (cup of coffee in NHL)
13?
That’s it?! The Windsor Spitfires have produced 93.
Bully for them. Why don’t you and KTF go find each other, whip ‘em out and measure yourselves because that’s all you seem to want to do here.
by The Rabid One on Aug 13, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
I already know mine is way bigger than yours Rabid!
Point is, Miami cannot be compared to the Windsor Spitfires in terms of producing NHL caliber talent.
Yeah, nice response. How old are you again? 13?
by The Rabid One on Aug 13, 2010 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions
The point of my post above was to refute that the “vast majority” of NCAA players in the NHL leave before four years. That statement is false for Miami, the school Czarnik committed to. I am not sure what a “vast majority” is, and that statement might be true, but I guess that is an empirical question, and will vary a lot by school.
Concerning how many NHLers Windsor has produced vs. Miami, there is nothing in the Miami mission statement (university or hockey) about producing NHL players. Miami provides an opportunity to play D1 hockey as part of one of the stonger programs (at least recently) and get a good education. It’s not for everyone, but neither is the CHL. That’s why these arguments are silly, IMO. If the CHL is getting more players from the US, that’s ok with me as long as they go for the right reasons. I guess that is the debate. I am biased, but, in my opinion, if a kid can handle the academics, NCAA hockey is the best option for most of the players coming up, JMHO.
But, Miami and other schools have proven you can get your degree from a strong school and still play in the NHL, that’s the point. Also, if you look at that list, an NHL all star like Boyle or regular like Greene were undrafted. They came to Miami, developed, got their degree, and are doing well in the NHL (an understatement for Olympic gold-medalist, Cup-winner, $40 mil contract Boyle).
And one more thing. What does not get mentioned often enough IMO is the college experience. You only get one opportunity for that experience as a 18-22 year old. I know I would not trade mine, well maybe for $40 mil :) but Boyle, et al. have both.
once again ktf you say your not bragging but you are…. he went to miami for a reason. you just need to shut up. tinordi only went because of money. i can guarantee that. that is why ALL the american go to the chl. almost every one of them gets money and dont try to start an argument with that cause i no you will.
Yeah sure money…any proof…no of course not!
Tinordi went because Montreal wanted him there….in fact during the past NHL entry draft 23 out of 30 NHL teams asked the NCAA bound players if they would play in the CHL! What does that tell you!
any proof of that?
What it would tell me is the good old boy network still doesn’t understand how good the level of hockey is in the NCAA, either that or they want total control over what their players do from day one.
by The Rabid One on Aug 15, 2010 1:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Proof…ask Paul Kelly of College Inc…he’s the one who stated it.
Good ole boy network?….there are quite a few NCAA grads now working in the front offices, so what that tells me is that the NHL recognizes the clear superiority of the CHL.
You say superiority, I say they want control over where they send their prospect. Can’t do that with NCAA kids
by The Rabid One on Aug 16, 2010 5:47 AM PDT up reply actions
No, they just know the CHL game better mirrors the NHL game and their prospects will have a much better chance at developing as opposed to going the NCAA route.
Says you. You do realize more and more kids are getting to the NHL through the NCAA route don’t you? NCAA kids are developing just fine, just ask Toews or Ryan Miller. AS you keep being told and yet somehow refuse to hear, both routes will get you to the pros, it depends on the player as to which route is better, most of us are able to see that. Why can’t you?
by The Rabid One on Aug 16, 2010 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions
More kids blah blah blah….the NCAA peaked around 2002-03 in terms of attracting top level talent, they are now in decline. They haven’t had a top 10 pick (either a player in the NCAA or going to the NCAA) during the past two drafts and this year will be no different!
Yeah because the only way to make the NHL is by being a high draft pick.
by The Rabid One on Aug 17, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
One more thing and I will get out of here. While the Boyle, Greene, Gionta and many other cases show you can get your degree, have the college experience, and still have good NHL careers, the college case is also (more?) about a player like Matt Christie. Christie was a NHL drafted player who came to Miami, had a good career, had the college experience, got his degree, played a couple of years in the AHL and ECHL, decided he wanted to get on with his life, and is now almost two years into a profession back in Canada at the age of 25 or 26. I think NCAA was a good choice for him. Now he was a hard-working student in a nationally ranked academic program at Miami, but he took advantage of the scholarship, Again, not necessarily for everyone, but right for him.
